Thank you for asking, Rebecca. And thank you for the buffet table of options... several of the bullet points apply.
I've been a pastor... a graduate of both Bible school and seminary. I left ministry at age 32... and then back again at age 56 - for another three years when I hit a theological brick wall. Whether I quit or got fired depends on who you ask. I've been a wanderer since - and finally started a podcast to explore my questions. It's been a gift these past three years. That's how I found you, Rebecca. The conservative denomination in which I devoted most of my life (Evangelical Free Church) is history for me. I pretty well burned my bridge. As evangelicalism became synonymous with the religious right, Christian nationalism and now MAGA, I've become an active critic. The fundamentalism of high control, conformity driven religion has theological and historic roots... but frankly, the center doesn't hold. I've discovered that there are many of us refugees exploring better ways to live. That includes you.
Becca, I feel I may be getting in over my head here but willing, at least at this point, to sink or swim. I have a childlike belief in God which I attribute to either intellectual laziness or the fear of losing what my belief affords me: reuniting with loved ones, especially my sister who passed away 45 years ago at age 23 and my brother who passed away 43 years ago at age 28. I was raised a “winter Methodist (our family took the summer off) and unbeknownst to me until much later in life my dad was the driving force of our attendance. He was a man of deep but quiet faith. My mom’s family didn’t attend church but lived as charitably and as committed to the Ten Commandments as any churchgoers. My mom struggled mightily with God after the loss of two of her five children but ultimately found comfort from faith based support groups. I have a sister who wrote about her personal relationship with Jesus Christ in 6th grade and my wife has a deep faith which she exercises with daily reading and a charitable heart dedicated to always being there: for the church, for those in need, for our family, for friends. Meanwhile I move through life loving and appreciating my family and friends, hopefully making others, friends and strangers alike, feel good about themselves and trying, though not always succeeding, to be a good guy. But, I need to be more: more knowledgeable, more faithful, more mindful, more committed to the search. And though it’s not that I never to talk about “this big picture” with my wife I think that while admiring how effectively and gracefully she lives her faith, it makes me feel frustrated or inadequate that I can’t seem to “go deeper” myself. And since I have never engaged in a search like yours I am both hopeful and confident that this format and your perspective, as well as that of others, will enhance my journey. Just laboring over this answer to your question has me enthusiastically anticipating more...thank you
Bill Johnson, it sounds like you are blessed with a wonderful wife. Thanks so much for sharing what you shared about your journey and frustration. If I may, can I suggest a book that I think might help you, especially since you mentioned the death of your sister and brother? The book is called "Imagine Heaven" by Pastor John Burke. It is about people of ALL faiths (including athiests) who died, went to heaven, were resuscitated and tell the stories of what they experienced. The reason I found this book profound is just how unbelievable yet wonderfully honest these stories were. Many of the NDE (near death experience) stories involved amazing descriptive facts that the "dead" person said they saw / heard while floating above their own lifeless body. In many cases, what the dead person said they saw was later verified by the hospital staff. These stories were scrutinized by the author and many were involved in scientific studies (and you KNOW scientists would weed out any obvious hooky false claims made by a wacko). Most of these amazing stories came from credible people, even community pillars like a pilot killed in a crash, a doctor who drowned in a kayak, and an electrician who was electrocuted. But for me, the coolest thing about this book was how the author identified an incredible pattern that emerged in most all of the cases that ties directly to a scripture. He wrote that a great majority of NDE survivors were put through a "life review" with either Jesus or an angel standing next to them, discussing the high and low points (but in a loving manor, nevr any feeling of condemnation) of the person's life. The things that were consistently reviewed and praised by Jesus / or angel boiled down to two things: (1) did you love the Lord God with all of your heart, mind, and soul and (2) did you love your neighbor as yourself? These both happen to be exactly what Jesus told the Pharisee when he tried to trick Jesus by asking, "Which is the greatest commandment?" (Matt. 22:34-40). Making that connection (their stories and Jesus's words) just gave me goosebumps, as did many of the stories. And I can honestly say I look forward to the day I die because of the peace this book brought me for deaths of both humans and animals, and I have the assurance I will see my pets again. Geesh! I should probably post this as an Amazon review! Sorry it became a novella!
Thank you for your kind words as well as your recommendation of “Imagine Heaven”. It is going to the top of my reading list. Have a great day. You helped make mine.
My husband and I were raised Southern Baptist. Every time the church doors were open, we were there. After we married my husband accepted what we thought was the opportunity of a lifetime with a large church in our area. He was a counseling pastor. That had been his passion for years.
By about year 10-12, it became harder for me to even attend services. Knowing the inner workings of the church had jaded me, discouraged me and deeply disappointed me. I felt that if Jesus himself walked into one of the services, few people would even recognize Him and that He would be deeply disappointed with the “production” that had become every worship service.
Eventually he resigned and we quit attending church. After a while, a fellow counselor invited our family to attend a very small church in the area. The word had gotten around that we were completely burned out and disenchanted. The people in this community allowed us to just “be”. No expectations, no criticism, just love. Eventually the small church disbanded. We visited various churches but have remained largely unchurched to this day.
Our faith is strong. But we have decided that organized religion per se can’t help but disappoint. After all, it’s full of imperfect people with imperfect ideas of what the original churches were.
My experience with various churches always left me disappointed. And yet I have never quite lost the sense that there is something bigger than me - a benevolent being who truly cares for us. I look forward to sharing this journey with you.
Rebecca, hank you for the opportunity to share and for your wonderful Substack. Your writing is the bomb! My ancestors were mennonites and pentecostals, about as far apart as two denominations could ever get! How they didn't beat each other over their heads with their Bibles is beyond me! So I guess to avoid that turmoil, my Dad moved our family (in 1961) to the opposite coast (New York to California) and I grew up Lutheran. But looking back, it felt good and right to sing the songs and try and behave good for God. But it slowly erroded away, just like how the Bible, the psalmist complains about how he wants his enemy to vanish and goes,"Let them be as a snail which melts away as it goes along."(Psalm 58:8) I LOVE that visual...that a snail melts as it moves along, you know, as it leaves an irridescent, never straight, but always changing directions like its drunk (this sounds like a metaphor for my life!) streak on the pavement. STOP! I think I'm on a rabbit trail, what was the question? FAITH experiences! OK, I grew to dislike religion because it was just dry and was just me trying to please God when I knew I was sinning. But after I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 13, I began to follow Jesus. And then I ran off to do life my own way. But I came back to my faith after about 14 years of sowing my wild oats and encountered the amazingness of the Holy Spirit. WHAT a game changer THAT was! So I basically went from ultra conservative to holy roller and I wouldn't trade it for anything! In my Substack under "PET TRACKER by Kat Albrecht" I share the story of my transition from police detective to PET detective. In an upcoming post (in Chapter 3, I think) I will share the story of my hearing God's voice and how that incident led me to find my "Life Purpose." That topic, helpimg others to find THEIR life purpose is something I feel I am called to do. So I'm afollower of Jesus. not religious, and watch church online. SO glad to be here!
Here's a bit about myself. I'm a life-long Lutheran (Mo. Synod parochial school, Valparaiso University, and then Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, graduating in 1974 from Seminex having walked off campus with the faculty and most of the students. I did not get ordained as I was still figuring out my sexuality (cis, gay) and didn't do that until I was nearly 40. Moved to Las Cruces NM and in addition to regular employment was church organist for 30 years. After the ELCA changed its policy about gay people as clergy, I was ordained in 2021, and have been serving a small parish in Hobbs, NM. I'm now 75.
My interest in your treehouse lies first in that the classical Christian doctrines (Trinity, Incarnation) make little sense today, but I don't have the theological stuff to suggest an alternative that says "the same thing" in different language. So I'm interested in the treehouse, but I'll have a difficult time "starting over from the beginning"
Oh, gosh, Stephen, would you have known Walter Bouman and Jim Childs? They were Seminex refugees as well and profs of mine at Trinity. Yeah, I hear that about the challenge with alternatives. You are probably familiar with Richard Rohr in ABQ - I feel like maybe that's what he's trying to do? To reframe the "system" a bit, sliding around to look at it through a different window? I also hear about the difficulty with starting over from the beginning, especially when it feels like it's been hard-wired into your operating system. I expect you'll have some refreshing takes and look forward to hearing your insights. Glad you are here!
I am from the solid ground group, but I love diving deeper and keeping fresh. I believe there are so many layers to spirituality. I believe in a loving God, and one who desires closeness. I have memorized scripture passages- all of which are affirming, joyful, supportive, hopeful, inspiring, and those that promote living my best life in peace with self and others. I begin each day doing Tai Chi while reciting these scriptures and praying for others. I have a devotion I read from as a finale to my routine.
Thank you for asking, Rebecca. And thank you for the buffet table of options... several of the bullet points apply.
I've been a pastor... a graduate of both Bible school and seminary. I left ministry at age 32... and then back again at age 56 - for another three years when I hit a theological brick wall. Whether I quit or got fired depends on who you ask. I've been a wanderer since - and finally started a podcast to explore my questions. It's been a gift these past three years. That's how I found you, Rebecca. The conservative denomination in which I devoted most of my life (Evangelical Free Church) is history for me. I pretty well burned my bridge. As evangelicalism became synonymous with the religious right, Christian nationalism and now MAGA, I've become an active critic. The fundamentalism of high control, conformity driven religion has theological and historic roots... but frankly, the center doesn't hold. I've discovered that there are many of us refugees exploring better ways to live. That includes you.
Thank you, Ken!
Becca, I feel I may be getting in over my head here but willing, at least at this point, to sink or swim. I have a childlike belief in God which I attribute to either intellectual laziness or the fear of losing what my belief affords me: reuniting with loved ones, especially my sister who passed away 45 years ago at age 23 and my brother who passed away 43 years ago at age 28. I was raised a “winter Methodist (our family took the summer off) and unbeknownst to me until much later in life my dad was the driving force of our attendance. He was a man of deep but quiet faith. My mom’s family didn’t attend church but lived as charitably and as committed to the Ten Commandments as any churchgoers. My mom struggled mightily with God after the loss of two of her five children but ultimately found comfort from faith based support groups. I have a sister who wrote about her personal relationship with Jesus Christ in 6th grade and my wife has a deep faith which she exercises with daily reading and a charitable heart dedicated to always being there: for the church, for those in need, for our family, for friends. Meanwhile I move through life loving and appreciating my family and friends, hopefully making others, friends and strangers alike, feel good about themselves and trying, though not always succeeding, to be a good guy. But, I need to be more: more knowledgeable, more faithful, more mindful, more committed to the search. And though it’s not that I never to talk about “this big picture” with my wife I think that while admiring how effectively and gracefully she lives her faith, it makes me feel frustrated or inadequate that I can’t seem to “go deeper” myself. And since I have never engaged in a search like yours I am both hopeful and confident that this format and your perspective, as well as that of others, will enhance my journey. Just laboring over this answer to your question has me enthusiastically anticipating more...thank you
Sticks, grateful to have you along. Thank you for this!
Bill Johnson, it sounds like you are blessed with a wonderful wife. Thanks so much for sharing what you shared about your journey and frustration. If I may, can I suggest a book that I think might help you, especially since you mentioned the death of your sister and brother? The book is called "Imagine Heaven" by Pastor John Burke. It is about people of ALL faiths (including athiests) who died, went to heaven, were resuscitated and tell the stories of what they experienced. The reason I found this book profound is just how unbelievable yet wonderfully honest these stories were. Many of the NDE (near death experience) stories involved amazing descriptive facts that the "dead" person said they saw / heard while floating above their own lifeless body. In many cases, what the dead person said they saw was later verified by the hospital staff. These stories were scrutinized by the author and many were involved in scientific studies (and you KNOW scientists would weed out any obvious hooky false claims made by a wacko). Most of these amazing stories came from credible people, even community pillars like a pilot killed in a crash, a doctor who drowned in a kayak, and an electrician who was electrocuted. But for me, the coolest thing about this book was how the author identified an incredible pattern that emerged in most all of the cases that ties directly to a scripture. He wrote that a great majority of NDE survivors were put through a "life review" with either Jesus or an angel standing next to them, discussing the high and low points (but in a loving manor, nevr any feeling of condemnation) of the person's life. The things that were consistently reviewed and praised by Jesus / or angel boiled down to two things: (1) did you love the Lord God with all of your heart, mind, and soul and (2) did you love your neighbor as yourself? These both happen to be exactly what Jesus told the Pharisee when he tried to trick Jesus by asking, "Which is the greatest commandment?" (Matt. 22:34-40). Making that connection (their stories and Jesus's words) just gave me goosebumps, as did many of the stories. And I can honestly say I look forward to the day I die because of the peace this book brought me for deaths of both humans and animals, and I have the assurance I will see my pets again. Geesh! I should probably post this as an Amazon review! Sorry it became a novella!
Thank you for your kind words as well as your recommendation of “Imagine Heaven”. It is going to the top of my reading list. Have a great day. You helped make mine.
My husband and I were raised Southern Baptist. Every time the church doors were open, we were there. After we married my husband accepted what we thought was the opportunity of a lifetime with a large church in our area. He was a counseling pastor. That had been his passion for years.
By about year 10-12, it became harder for me to even attend services. Knowing the inner workings of the church had jaded me, discouraged me and deeply disappointed me. I felt that if Jesus himself walked into one of the services, few people would even recognize Him and that He would be deeply disappointed with the “production” that had become every worship service.
Eventually he resigned and we quit attending church. After a while, a fellow counselor invited our family to attend a very small church in the area. The word had gotten around that we were completely burned out and disenchanted. The people in this community allowed us to just “be”. No expectations, no criticism, just love. Eventually the small church disbanded. We visited various churches but have remained largely unchurched to this day.
Our faith is strong. But we have decided that organized religion per se can’t help but disappoint. After all, it’s full of imperfect people with imperfect ideas of what the original churches were.
That’s our story…
Oh, Sherry! I feel this in my bones. Thank you for sharing your story here.
Rebecca, thank you for giving us encouragement and freedom to share.
My experience with various churches always left me disappointed. And yet I have never quite lost the sense that there is something bigger than me - a benevolent being who truly cares for us. I look forward to sharing this journey with you.
Thank you for sharing here, Susan!
Rebecca, hank you for the opportunity to share and for your wonderful Substack. Your writing is the bomb! My ancestors were mennonites and pentecostals, about as far apart as two denominations could ever get! How they didn't beat each other over their heads with their Bibles is beyond me! So I guess to avoid that turmoil, my Dad moved our family (in 1961) to the opposite coast (New York to California) and I grew up Lutheran. But looking back, it felt good and right to sing the songs and try and behave good for God. But it slowly erroded away, just like how the Bible, the psalmist complains about how he wants his enemy to vanish and goes,"Let them be as a snail which melts away as it goes along."(Psalm 58:8) I LOVE that visual...that a snail melts as it moves along, you know, as it leaves an irridescent, never straight, but always changing directions like its drunk (this sounds like a metaphor for my life!) streak on the pavement. STOP! I think I'm on a rabbit trail, what was the question? FAITH experiences! OK, I grew to dislike religion because it was just dry and was just me trying to please God when I knew I was sinning. But after I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 13, I began to follow Jesus. And then I ran off to do life my own way. But I came back to my faith after about 14 years of sowing my wild oats and encountered the amazingness of the Holy Spirit. WHAT a game changer THAT was! So I basically went from ultra conservative to holy roller and I wouldn't trade it for anything! In my Substack under "PET TRACKER by Kat Albrecht" I share the story of my transition from police detective to PET detective. In an upcoming post (in Chapter 3, I think) I will share the story of my hearing God's voice and how that incident led me to find my "Life Purpose." That topic, helpimg others to find THEIR life purpose is something I feel I am called to do. So I'm afollower of Jesus. not religious, and watch church online. SO glad to be here!
Welcome!
I believe only in love and that’s enough.
Hi Rebecca,
Here's a bit about myself. I'm a life-long Lutheran (Mo. Synod parochial school, Valparaiso University, and then Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, graduating in 1974 from Seminex having walked off campus with the faculty and most of the students. I did not get ordained as I was still figuring out my sexuality (cis, gay) and didn't do that until I was nearly 40. Moved to Las Cruces NM and in addition to regular employment was church organist for 30 years. After the ELCA changed its policy about gay people as clergy, I was ordained in 2021, and have been serving a small parish in Hobbs, NM. I'm now 75.
My interest in your treehouse lies first in that the classical Christian doctrines (Trinity, Incarnation) make little sense today, but I don't have the theological stuff to suggest an alternative that says "the same thing" in different language. So I'm interested in the treehouse, but I'll have a difficult time "starting over from the beginning"
Stephen Helmreich
Oh, gosh, Stephen, would you have known Walter Bouman and Jim Childs? They were Seminex refugees as well and profs of mine at Trinity. Yeah, I hear that about the challenge with alternatives. You are probably familiar with Richard Rohr in ABQ - I feel like maybe that's what he's trying to do? To reframe the "system" a bit, sliding around to look at it through a different window? I also hear about the difficulty with starting over from the beginning, especially when it feels like it's been hard-wired into your operating system. I expect you'll have some refreshing takes and look forward to hearing your insights. Glad you are here!
I am from the solid ground group, but I love diving deeper and keeping fresh. I believe there are so many layers to spirituality. I believe in a loving God, and one who desires closeness. I have memorized scripture passages- all of which are affirming, joyful, supportive, hopeful, inspiring, and those that promote living my best life in peace with self and others. I begin each day doing Tai Chi while reciting these scriptures and praying for others. I have a devotion I read from as a finale to my routine.
So glad you are here, Minda, and your morning routine sounds lovely.